the big question: Marshall or Lillard
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  1. boomtown
    boomtown
    Posts: 272

    Posted 06/25/2012 1:52 PM

    So if we get Lillard at 6, who do you want to go with him at 11?

    And if we get Drummond at 6, do you want Marshall at 11?

    I know Lillard's getting a lot of praise, here and in workouts, he can score, I see many reasons why he'd be good for Portland his future is bright.

    And I know Marshall is nowhere near as polished offensively, but I'm just gonna say this.  I think Marshall can pass as good as any NBA point guard.  He is a true floor general who is going to make all the guys around him better.

    That's why I'm in favor of a drummond/marshall combination.  Let L.A., Hickson, Batum, and Matthews score.  We don't need Lillard's scoring, we need Marshall's passing.

    that's my thinking anyway

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  1. Blazersfan1234
    Blazersfan1234
    Posts: 33

    Posted 06/25/2012 2:12 PM

    If we drafted Lillard I would draft Henson. I think Henson has potential to be a great shot blocker and rebounder if he gains some muscle and weight since he has a crazy 7'6 wingspan. I also like the idea of drafting Drummond and Marshall. As you already said Marshall is an excellent passer and if he improves his shot I believe that he will be a good PG. Drummond is raw but he has potential to be someone great. I think that if the Blazers sense that they are going to lose Batum I think they will draft a replacement for him someone like Terrence Ross/Moe Harkless but selecting one of them at 11th might be a little to early. Either way I think that this draft may shape the Blazers team for the next few years.
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  1. jwood
    jwood
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    Posted 06/25/2012 2:18 PM

    i like the traditional PG style that marshall has but i am very concerned about his lack of quickness and ability to defend athletic players.
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  1. cedricmasonstone
    cedricmasonstone
    Posts: 98

    Posted 06/25/2012 4:33 PM

    reports say austen rivers and dion waiters could be i the mix for the 11 pick

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  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 06/25/2012 4:54 PM

    Anyone who suggests we draft Marshall does not know basketball. Here is why three reasons he would not work in Portland.

    1. Wesley Matthews and Nicolas Batum are terrible at moving without the ball. Both players tend to plant themselves around the three point line and stay there hoping the PG or LA kicks the ball out to them, with Marshall not being a shooting threat teams will sag off him and make him take jumpers cutting down on his passing lanes and because neither Matthews nor Batum actively cut to the rim Marshall's great passing will be lessened. 
    2. Our team defense, especially help defense was terrible last season. Marshall is nonathletic in comparison to many NBA point guards this will put extra pressure on an already weak defense.
    3. Portland is one of the worst teams in the NBA at getting to the free throw line. Marshall will not change this and could lead to the team taking even more jump shots. 
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Ricky
    Ricky
    Posts: 540

    Posted 06/25/2012 5:03 PM

    I think the #11 pick will be between Waiters, Leonard, or Drummond should he fall that far.  From all the reports I have heard there are at least 16 players that will go in the top ten.  So where are we.
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  1. mbmurr1
    mbmurr1
    Posts: 530

    Posted 06/25/2012 10:37 PM

    I think your question should be "do we take Lillard or Drummond at #6" because Leonard will be there at #11 if we don't take Drummond at #6 and Marshall will be there at #11 for sure. I think we might be the ones who want Waiters at #11, if that is the case we will have to trade up into the top 15 to get Marshall, assuming we took Drummond at #6, Waiters at #11, and Marshall at #15 or wait till round 2 or free agency for a PG? 
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  1. mbmurr1
    mbmurr1
    Posts: 530

    Posted 06/25/2012 10:41 PM

    I think the Rockets are in a great position in this draft at #14 and #16
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  1. boomtown
    boomtown
    Posts: 272

    Posted 06/26/2012 12:27 AM

    Posted By Blazersfan1234 on 06/25/2012 2:12 PM
    If we drafted Lillard I would draft Henson. I think Henson has potential to be a great shot blocker and rebounder if he gains some muscle and weight since he has a crazy 7'6 wingspan. I also like the idea of drafting Drummond and Marshall. As you already said Marshall is an excellent passer and if he improves his shot I believe that he will be a good PG. Drummond is raw but he has potential to be someone great. I think that if the Blazers sense that they are going to lose Batum I think they will draft a replacement for him someone like Terrence Ross/Moe Harkless but selecting one of them at 11th might be a little to early. Either way I think that this draft may shape the Blazers team for the next few years.

    i'm with you here.  and as of today, blazers gave batum the qualifying offer of 5.4 million or something?  I do'nt expect he'll sign for that, but I don't know how the "game" is played going forward, but the Blazers took the first step and that's a really good sign, so we may not have to talk about barnes, harkless, or ross... 

    another "point guard" nobody's really mentioned is ross's teammate.  You know Wroten was just a freshman last year and he was regarded as the best player in the pac 12 conference for much of the year.  I think when he was on some national televised games and he threw some bricks at the hook at crunchtime, people started shaking their head.  that's the same shit that's going to make fans shake their head at drummond too.  Lillard won't have that problem.  But Wroten is a player, the guy is really skilled and he is also a taller, longer guy.  I think he's got the size to be a legitimate SG, but he's a ball handler and he setup some huskies with some pretty sweet dishes.  The fact that he's so young, well, he's just another guy who should probably be taken late first, early 2nd and I dunno, but he's got potential.

    anyway, yeah, i like henson a lot too.  as someone else said, he may not be considered a true center, I think him and zeller both were considered to be forwards at UNC, but henson is like 6-11 if I'm not mistaken and he's about 240+ now?  I mean, yeah, his skills with L.A's combined give us size, scoring, blocks... they'll naturally get some boards too, but they're not really bangers.  so yeah, I'd hope henson does shovel down a lot of protein.

    Biggest problem I have with this year's draft, or really many of the drafts of recent years (and more to come) is there's far too many freshman declaring and they're all really raw.  Many of them need developing and if you look at Portland's track record, they don't seem to have the patience to develop these guys.  From Martell Webster to Outlaw, even Jermaine O'Neal, and the list goes on... Portland typically gets rid of them when they start to show promise, or they just give up on them too early... or the players just turn out to be over-rated in the first place.  One guy in these blogs mentioned that he doesn't like drafting all these guys with high ceilings that need to develop so much, but there's very few guys who are adequately developed.

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  1. boomtown
    boomtown
    Posts: 272

    Posted 06/26/2012 12:57 AM

    Posted By cmeese47 on 06/25/2012 4:54 PM
    Anyone who suggests we draft Marshall does not know basketball. Here is why three reasons he would not work in Portland.

    1. Wesley Matthews and Nicolas Batum are terrible at moving without the ball. Both players tend to plant themselves around the three point line and stay there hoping the PG or LA kicks the ball out to them, with Marshall not being a shooting threat teams will sag off him and make him take jumpers cutting down on his passing lanes and because neither Matthews nor Batum actively cut to the rim Marshall's great passing will be lessened. 
    2. Our team defense, especially help defense was terrible last season. Marshall is nonathletic in comparison to many NBA point guards this will put extra pressure on an already weak defense.
    3. Portland is one of the worst teams in the NBA at getting to the free throw line. Marshall will not change this and could lead to the team taking even more jump shots. 

    The biggest problem is that all of you high on Lillard talk about all of Portland's problems and all of Lillard's abilities like he's just the perfect fit.  Ya'll say the right things to make him sound so sweet, but you ignore the facts and other team needs.

    I know basketball and I know what Marshall brings to the table and the criticisms you have of him, well, I have equal concerns with Lillard. 

    I'l try and keep this short and sweet.

    Marshall is the best passer in this draft.
    Marshall gets out in transition and he makes things happen with his playmaking.  
    Coaches need to coach, and I'd like to see the blazers take a page out of Calipari's play book and implement a motion offense.
    With Marshall, all players will be more involved in the offense.
    Do you not think Batum and Matthews are capable of moving and driving or do you just naturally make them out to sound like lazy pieces of shit to justify bringing in Lillard?

    You honestly think Batum and Matthews will be more involved in the offense with Lillard here?  Hell no, they'll be even less involved, so great, congratulations, you want Portland to have a 2 man show on offense, damn the rest... cuz that's how it'll be.

    I like Lillard and Henson as an option, I've said before I"m not opposed to Lillard, but we have a choice, and I PREFER getting a REAL point guard who can pass.

    I like Waiters and Nash more
    I like Waiters and Marshall
    Waiters and Henson
    Drummond and Marshall
    Drummond and trade down

    I'd like to know why you classify Marshall as non-athletic.  Many regard him as the best transitional and best passing true point guard in the draft and some experts have gone onto say that his passing ability is as good as any in the nba now.

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  1. boomtown
    boomtown
    Posts: 272

    Posted 06/26/2012 1:03 AM

    Posted By cedricmasonstone on 06/25/2012 4:33 PM
    reports say austen rivers and dion waiters could be i the mix for the 11 pick


    well, i"ve been saying we don't need a shooting guard, but I do like waiters because of his ability to create, get to the hoop, and even his coach said he may be one of the most nba ready guards he's ever coached.  rivers has pedigree, but i wouldn't want him at all.  he can't pass like waiters, in face he hardly ever passes. Rivers can shoot, and he's fairly skilled, but i don't think he's as needed as waiters, but I also don't think waiters will be there at 11.  If he is, i don't think portland can pass him up.

    I've been thinking portland would have to get waiters at 6, but everyone's convinced it's lillard or drummond.  you know, if drummond, lillard, and waiters are all available at 6, and portland takes waiters, well, it's feasible 1 of those guys slides to 11.

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  1. sug81
    sug81
    Posts: 254

    Posted 06/26/2012 1:37 AM

    People saying lillard cant pass is false your looking at stats but if you actually see footage youll see he can move the ball with ease im not saying hes at marshalls level but he is easily good enough to run a team. At Weber his team needed him to score so he did... a lot at that. And if 6 and 11 are kept id say henson is a good idea but i think a better choice is someone who could atleast try to fit in broys shoes. Obviously he wont replace him but you know what im getting at. I think lamb, waiters, rivers, or trade the 11 down for the celtics 21 and 22 and pick ross and moultre if hes not there than fab melo. Or if they want to improve the wing even more pick ross and moe harkless and target guys like hibbert mcgee and kaman in the free agency.
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  1. jamsmashers
    jamsmashers
    Posts: 297

    Posted 06/26/2012 9:16 AM

    lets fuse marshell and lillard together =D
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  1. FoulWeatherFan
    FoulWeatherFan
    Posts: 126

    Posted 06/26/2012 10:52 AM

    Posted By mbmurr1 on 06/25/2012 10:41 PM
    I think the Rockets are in a great position in this draft at #14 and #16

    I'd rather be us(6,11) or New Orleans(1,10)
    I am a fan of close games.
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 06/26/2012 11:00 AM

    The reason I call Marshall un-athletic is because his lane agility would rank as the 5th slowest by drafted PG's on record. His inability to move laterally shows a potential major issue in guarding perimeter defenders. This is especially problematic when he has to likely guard Russel Westbrook if we ever want to reach the NBA finals. 
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. boomtown
    boomtown
    Posts: 272

    Posted 06/26/2012 11:05 AM

    Posted By sug81 on 06/26/2012 1:37 AM
    People saying lillard cant pass is false your looking at stats but if you actually see footage youll see he can move the ball with ease im not saying hes at marshalls level but he is easily good enough to run a team. At Weber his team needed him to score so he did... a lot at that. And if 6 and 11 are kept id say henson is a good idea but i think a better choice is someone who could atleast try to fit in broys shoes. Obviously he wont replace him but you know what im getting at. I think lamb, waiters, rivers, or trade the 11 down for the celtics 21 and 22 and pick ross and moultre if hes not there than fab melo. Or if they want to improve the wing even more pick ross and moe harkless and target guys like hibbert mcgee and kaman in the free agency.

    I never said Lillard can't pass, I just said he doesn't have Marshall's court awarenesss, Lillard overlooks wide open targets because he's too fixated on created for himself, and most his passes are little dump offs.  Lillard isn't stupid.  He runs into trouble trying to create, but he also doesn't turn the ball over that much, so yeah, typically he'll find someone when he does get in trouble.  

    The only hope I have for Lillard to develop into a better passing guard is that he'll have guys on the team who are going to want the ball and I think he'll pass more because he'll have more talent around him.  But I used the analogy before:  If you have Vick or Griffin the III and you know they're a scrambling QB, do you ask them to make the transition to pocket QBs?  

    Jamsmashers says we need to fuse Lillard and Marshall and that's EXACTLY what needs to happen and THAT is why we should be yelling for Portland to bring in someone like Nash... he brings an all-around game fans will want and he fills a void that's been with the blazers for probably a decade.... lillard and marshall won't fill that void the way fans want.  some think they will, but they won't.  Maybe next year or the year after there's a more Chris Paul type PG avaiable...

    And I really think people under-estimate (or just don't know) Scott Machado.  He's 6-2, led the nation in assists, he shot about 50% from the floor, 80% from the line, scored about 12-13 ppg, and for much of the year was regarded as the top PG in the nation.  Marshall came on strong and was right there with him in apg as well.  And I think Marshall won the cousy award.  Machado's not the explosive scorer Lillard is, but Machado is a very smart player with good shot selection and across the board his percentages are right there.  Maybe defensively he's not as good as Lillard, and his passing isn't perfected and he makes some mistakes (turnovers), but he has about a 3:1 assist to turnover ratio.  I don't think this guy's going to fall to 40; he's been working out with almost every team in the NBA and in a weak year for PGs, he's probably rated 3rd or 4th (above or just below Tony Wroten).  I really do think Machado could run the point from day 1, but I'd be much more excited if Machado was brought in to backup a guy like Nash because in 2-3 years time, I think Machado could be an every game starter fans would love.  It's similar to Tony Romo learning from the bench and then one day this career backup comes in and dazzles the crowd... well... until he choked in the playoffs.  lol

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  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 06/26/2012 11:11 AM

    Now we are talking Marshall and Machado are very close in skill levels but will not be close on the draft board. I would much rather get someone like Machado late if we are going for the slower more traditional passing PG. 
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. boomtown
    boomtown
    Posts: 272

    Posted 06/26/2012 12:46 PM

    me too.  and bring in nash, and i'd like to draft waiters and henson b/c with them you get a couple guys who can score and aren't shy of playing in the paint... and they bring the things you want out of lillard, but even more... and with nash we fill the big void.  only problem with my plan is henson's size, but i think I'd prefer henson and waiters over drummond and whatever we'd get at 11 (if the plan is to skip on marshall and bring in nash and machado).

    couple more days is all we have to wait.
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  1. jwood
    jwood
    Posts: 117

    Posted 06/26/2012 1:02 PM

    i like your idea of taking waiters.  henson is scary though. i don't think that frame can add much weight.  i don't see him beefing up much. its just not his body type. i don't see him being any better than anthony randoloph and i would be real concerned about potential for injuries getting banged around in the paint every night.
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  1. boomtown
    boomtown
    Posts: 272

    Posted 06/26/2012 1:12 PM

    the other thing I'd say to all the big lillard fans in the house.

    People keep saying Lillard shot so much because his team around him sucked and that's really not true, they were a really good team in the big sky.

    But equally, you could say Marshall didn't have to shoot because he had zeller, barnes, henson, and a wealth of other talent around him.  He accepted that he did not need to score and he prides himself on passing and setting up his teammates. I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't want a player with such a team attitude instilled in him on the Blazers roster.

    Maybe he will develop into a better scorer, but as a passing point guard, he doesn't need to.  I'd like to have a distributor like Marshall along with a creator like Waiters... problem is that I kinda like henson or a big man coming aboard and that won't happen at 6 or 11 is they're drafted, obviously.  so i guess passing on marshall for nash and getting a big man at 11 with waiters (at 6) i think could be portland's best strategy.  Unless waiters or drummond somehow slide to 11... 
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