Ball Don't Lie.... Batum Not Worth 10 Million Per Season
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  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 04/06/2012 9:57 AM

    It seems that many Blazer fans want Nico back no matter the cost but according the advanced player metrics that is a terrible idea. 

    John Hollinger has Batum ranked 7th in Adjusted PER at 17.7 a number that by itself is pretty good but dig a little deeper and the stats begin telling you a different story. 

    Batum has played 3 positions this year for the Blazers SG, SF and PF. With most of his time coming at the SF. 
    Nico has been the Blazers shooting guard for 251 minutes this season and during that time his un-adjusted PER is just 14.3. While defensively he is allowing a PER of 13.3 to other SG's. Defensively those numbers are not bad, but the differential has him barely beating his opponent and that cannot happen for 10 million a season.

    Things get a little better for Nico when he moves to SF in 1106 mins his un-adjusted PER is a solid 18.5. This was somewhat unexpected since I felt he played more aggressively when matched up against smaller 2 guards. On the defensive side of the ball Nico's opponents un-adjusted PER is 15.2. That is a much stronger differential which would lead you to believe that he routinely wins those match-ups. We will address that issue shortly.

    Nico has played sparingly at PW with only 76 minutes but his time there has not been productive at all. His un-adjusted PER is 9.1 while his opponents posted a 21.2 PER. This number shows that Nico really struggles when matched up against larger opponents. 

    Overall, you might just be saying to yourself who cares keep him at SF and his will win his match-up every night.
    That seems like a good idea until you look at the teams production with him in the lineup. Offensively per 100 possessions the Blazers are getting out scored by 3.4 points per 100 possessions while he is on the court. When he is off the court Portland outscores the opposition by 5 points per 100 possessions. The biggest difference is on the defensive side of the ball where opponents average 11.2 points per 100 possessions less when Batum is on the bench. In addition, Nico's plus/minus for the season is -78 while the team is +117 while he is on the bench. That means that the team is 195 points better in the 41% of the time Nico is not on the court. You cannot give 10 million dollars a year to someone who does not seem to make the team better.
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Tobyus Sanchezo
    Tobyus Sanchezo
    Posts: 1669

    Posted 04/06/2012 8:37 PM

    and I suppose Rashard Lewis is worth 17 million? Talented small forwards get fat checks in the NBA, they're a dying breed.
    I am a fan of multiple All-Stars on the Blazers roster this season!
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
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    Posted 04/06/2012 9:11 PM

    Not even close but he got his contract during a different era.
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. postedbailblazers
    postedbailblazers
    Posts: 165

    Posted 04/07/2012 12:07 AM

    Nice layout of the details there Cmeese.  That puts into numbers the gut feelings I've had around him.  I'm gonna hurl if I hear Rice say 'you've gotta keep Nic' one more time. 
    I am a fan of rhubarb pie.
  1. sealer legion
    sealer legion
    Posts: 63

    Posted 04/07/2012 4:24 AM

    Just saying, the first reason why team is better when he was off the court was not literally like that. I think the first reason is because he struggled for the first couple of games of the season. But, in the end, we can see that he improves a lot. The second reason is that for the first half of the season, he didn't have enough chance to prove that he is a great and reliable player. The third reason is that during the game against the Knicks, the Blazers seemed to lose hope when it comes to the fourth quarter, and Batum played the entire fourth quarter with the other bench players like Babbitt, Johnson, Smith and the other Smith. You can't blame him for not being aggressive when you are down 40-ish points and you're the only starter there and you know that your team was being humiliated. I think the timing is just not right.
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  1. postedbailblazers
    postedbailblazers
    Posts: 165

    Posted 04/07/2012 4:45 PM

    @sealer:  Not saying I don't like him.  I just think it's getting to be one of those hyped up things that leads to a bad contract.  I can't say for sure that Batum will improve a lot on where he's at.  He is not a help in the fourth...he's part of the problem.  E.G. the Dallas game.  He falls off the face of the earth when it's cruch time.  That has been an ongoing theme.  I'll take him as a starter.  But we don't need to feel backed into a corner to sign him.  We will miss him if we lose him to FA.  But for the cash we might have to put out to keep him he's replacable.  In fact we should draft some SFs this year so we don't have to feel so desperate to keep him.



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  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 04/07/2012 10:03 PM

    I like Batum but he has gotten so over hyped that he will most certainly become vastly over paid this summer. If Portland was a championship caliber team then I would say pay the man his money, but they are not. Signing Batum for 10 million a season would absolutely limit this team moving forward. We have lots of needs so we need to get the most we can out of that 10 million.
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
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    Posted 04/09/2012 12:57 PM

    Mike Rice said Nico is not worth 10 million per so that is good enough for me
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Choong Huh
    Choong Huh
    Posts: 67

    Posted 04/09/2012 1:22 PM

    This I actually agree 100% on. I would perhaps be willing to overspend until it gets to 8.5M per year, but lots of other good players can be acquired with that kind of money...
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  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
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    Posted 04/09/2012 2:39 PM

    The problem is Batum is head and shoulders above a weak SF free agent class. Jeff Green and Grant Hill are the two next best options. One is nearly the end of his career and the other has major health concerns. Ideally Portland could work out a sign and trade deal for Batum or keep him at a much lower rate than he will likely command.
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Choong Huh
    Choong Huh
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    Posted 04/10/2012 12:41 AM

    I'm sure an arrangement could be made... Sign and trade with Crawford and a lottery pick for Danny Granger or Iguodala...... Too far...?
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  1. BDawg
    BDawg
    Posts: 1593

    Posted 04/10/2012 5:23 AM

    Posted By cmeese47 on 04/07/2012 10:03 PM
    I like Batum but he has gotten so over hyped that he will most certainly become vastly over paid this summer. If Portland was a championship caliber team then I would say pay the man his money, but they are not. Signing Batum for 10 million a season would absolutely limit this team moving forward. We have lots of needs so we need to get the most we can out of that 10 million.
    Preachin to the choir my friend.  Been critical of Batum's game now for quite some time.  Couldn't agree with this^ more.  Very well said.  This is a business, and in business successful businesses make the tough decisions when they need to be made.  Buy low, sell high.  Period. 

    As I've said many, MANY times...it is truly sad to see a player so incredibly gifted athletically, be without a motor.  Simply a waste.
    I am a fan of players that play with PASSION and PRIDE
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
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    Posted 04/10/2012 11:36 AM

    From what I understand Batum rejected an offer similar to the one Matthews signed meaning that he clearly wants more than 7 million a season. Sure quality small forwards are not exactly a dime a dozen but how much will someone offer him. Houston, Dallas and Boston all have lots of cap room and he would fit well with any of those rosters. Ideally, Portland works out a sign and trade with Boston for Rajon Rondo.
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. DHawes22
    DHawes22
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    Posted 04/10/2012 12:27 PM

    Posted By Tobyus Sanchezo on 04/06/2012 8:37 PM
    and I suppose Rashard Lewis is worth 17 million? Talented small forwards get fat checks in the NBA, they're a dying breed.

    If there is one position in the NBA that has a plethora of stars, it is the small forward spot. Off the top of my head, LeBron James, Kevin Durant, Danny Granger, Paul Pierce, Danilo Gallinari, Carmelo Anthony, Luol Deng, Caron Butler, Rudy Gay, Kawhi Leonard, Derrick Williams, Andre Iguodala, Gerald Wallace, and Nicolas Batum. The position is STACKED. And not to mention, the draft is loaded with small forwards: Harrison Barnes, MKG, Terrence Jones and Perry Jones just to name a few.
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  1. Choong Huh
    Choong Huh
    Posts: 67

    Posted 04/10/2012 1:14 PM

    That many SF for how many teams in the NBA...? They're all under contracts and Batum is the only one from that list that will become a free agent, making him a highly demanded one. This draft is a big man's pool. PJ3, Terrence Jones are all in a power forward's frame, and Harrison Barnes' draft value is going down fast. MKG is a lock as a top 3 pick. Our choice is a very limited one...
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  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
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    Posted 04/10/2012 3:27 PM

    @dhawes makes a good point but so does choong huh not much of that talent is going to be available this off-season meaning we have to resign Batum or we need to get someone either in the draft of via trade. 

    I would love to see us try and acquire someone like Iguodala or Danny Granger over paying Batum 10 million. 
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. jamsmashers
    jamsmashers
    Posts: 297

    Posted 04/11/2012 3:24 AM

    batum will likely not get 10 million, ill try to find the article I read that stated mike rice told nic not to be down from not getting an offer, because portland is trying to see what he is worth, to give him what he is worth, I see batum getting8 millionish- http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=217254

    housan- not listed but has a strong off season coming, most likely spot for  batum besides blazers

    phx- not sure who they go after, if they keep or let steve nash go is the key, if they keep I imagine more exerience players to surround him with such as ray allen, if they leave him nic could go here

    clv- think nico would be ok here with irving

    boston- with Ray leaving, nic may be a fit here, but lack of physical  aggressiveness may not be a fit

    indi- def not go, 3 sg deep, and granger, not a fit

    NO/nj- no one wants to play there without cp3 or williams

    cha- first pick would look nice, but seeing them the worst team in the nba for a yr or 2 more, so batum no want to go here

    wizards- could be a fit

    phi- iguadala and turner

    dallas- marrion and likely terry

    - really which one of these teams has a chance? boston? housan? maybe phx? and a stetch for clv? outside that do not see a team that can say look at our town or look at our team and come out and offer him even 8 mil....
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  1. jamsmashers
    jamsmashers
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    Posted 04/11/2012 3:28 AM

    and before someone says money talks, being on a losing team is not fun, and selling a house and buying a new one is a hassle
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  1. stacksfan2005
    stacksfan2005
    Posts: 363

    Posted 04/11/2012 7:34 AM

    id say sign him for as cheap as possible, start him at the 2 and ship matthews somewhere for a good 3 leaving back up 2 to elliot williams
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
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    Posted 04/11/2012 1:48 PM

    Just heard on the radio that Batum's earlier offer was close to 7.5 million a season and he turned it down. Damn greedy Frenchmen. I can find solid defense 14 points and 5 rebounds elsewhere and for less money. If this is the kind of money you expect sign with Charlotte I am sure they would love your mediocrity.
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. sealer legion
    sealer legion
    Posts: 63

    Posted 04/11/2012 3:14 PM

    What I saw on the news is that Batum actually doesn't care about the amount of money he'll got but he wants some playing time. His agent is the one who shut it down. His agent is the one who is greedy and I want Batum to find a better agent!
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  1. Mieke Appel
    Mieke Appel
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    Posted 04/11/2012 3:57 PM

    You figures are nuts.  When Batum is sitting on the bench, our bench players are playing so you can't compare defensive and offense pers that way.  Nic is without question the number 2 player on our team and among the youngest, still only 23.  Keep him at any cost.
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  1. jamsmashers
    jamsmashers
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    Posted 04/11/2012 4:24 PM

    i think we will mieke, and i am happy for it, he is a starter on any team in the nba, even miami would start james at pg to start batum, offense aside, he is a top 5 sg defender possibly top 3- kobe wade, cant think of another sg better than  batum at defense, sf maybe top 5?- gerald lebron occasionally marion (def not pierce) not durant maybe iggy, better than ron and tony allen and ariza now i think, so yeah top 5 sg/sf defender
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  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
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    Posted 04/12/2012 11:40 AM

    Posted By jamsmashers on 04/11/2012 4:24 PM
    i think we will mieke, and i am happy for it, he is a starter on any team in the nba, even miami would start james at pg to start batum, offense aside, he is a top 5 sg defender possibly top 3- kobe wade, cant think of another sg better than  batum at defense, sf maybe top 5?- gerald lebron occasionally marion (def not pierce) not durant maybe iggy, better than ron and tony allen and ariza now i think, so yeah top 5 sg/sf defender

    First of all Batum is not anywhere close to top 5 in defense. Tony Allen is the best defensive shooting guard in the NBA. He rarely gets beaten in isolation and closes well on perimeter jumpers which is why for the last 3 seasons opponents have not exceeded 37% shooting against him with them averaging 34.3% last season. Lebron is hands down a better defender than Batum based on his help defense alone. Not to mention in isolation Lebron is the best defender in the league giving up only 10 isolation baskets all season. Wade plays a little too far off his man to try and compensate for his average isolation defense but his help defense is better than Lebron's only trailing Dwight Howard in that category he also destroys pick and rolls giving up only .62 points per possession. Iggy's PER against is by far the best in the league is 8.2, that is despite having to guard people like Wade, Lebron, Durant and others on a nightly basis. Just for comparison Batum's is 15.2.

    Just a short list of superior sg and sf defenders than Batum:
    Tony Allen
    Ray Allen
    Manu Ginobili 
    James Harden
    Stephen Jackson
    Eric Gordon
    Dwayne Wade
    Kobe Bryant
    Lebron James 
    Gerald Wallace
    Andre Iguodala
    Luol Deng
    Shawn Marion
    Hell even Grant Hill at his age is still a better defender than Batum. 

    I like Nico but by any defensive statistic outside the vastly over rated blocks per game he is no where near the top 5 in defensive efficiency. 
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
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    Posted 04/12/2012 11:53 AM

    Posted By Mieke Appel on 04/11/2012 3:57 PM
    You figures are nuts.  When Batum is sitting on the bench, our bench players are playing so you can't compare defensive and offense pers that way.  Nic is without question the number 2 player on our team and among the youngest, still only 23.  Keep him at any cost.

    Blazers Starting Five
    Felton plus minus net gain of 173
    Matthews plus minus net gain of 145
    Batum plus minus net loss of 195
    Aldridge plus minus net gain 219
    Pryzbilla plus minus net loss of 119

    Wallace plus minus net gain 249
    Camby plus minus net gain 9

    So you replace Joel with Camby and Batum is the only starter with a negative plus minus rating. It also makes sense that Joel's would be low considering how little offense he provides. 

    It sucks when the numbers tell a different story than what we want to believe
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. jamsmashers
    jamsmashers
    Posts: 297

    Posted 04/12/2012 2:00 PM

    Tony Allen-arguable
    Ray Allen-this is just dumb, ray allen is not a good defender, they p ut him on the worste player on the other team
    Manu Ginobili - like steve nash D, they both too old, batum is better
    James Harden-i don't think so
    Stephen Jackson-no way
    Eric Gordon-no freaking way
    Dwayne Wade
    Kobe Bryant
    Lebron James 
    Gerald Wallace
    Andre Iguodala-comparable, batum's numbers on theb est 3 (kobe lebron durant) are all better than iggy
    Luol Deng- close
    Shawn Marion (on way out)

    batum will be a blazer, i would win a 1,000,000 bucks on a bet on it. I have watched announcers on other teams say his style is comparable to scotty pippen and has a great potential, and they expect blazers to keep him, not for 10 mil, maybe 8 mil, no one will offer him 10,  batum is def worth 8 mil, and is def a good 3rd option
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  1. jamsmashers
    jamsmashers
    Posts: 297

    Posted 04/12/2012 2:02 PM

    also he is - because he played first half of the season on the bench, which we all know totally sucked,  then he was in with the second unit when we struggled, that is the only reaso he is - if u look the number is coming down
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  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
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    Posted 04/12/2012 3:34 PM

    Looking at the defensive numbers for last season Ray Allen was number 2 for all SG in defense. He allowed the lowest scoring percentage of all 2 guards last year and was number 2 in fg% against. Ginobili maybe old but right now he is a better defender long term not so much. James Harden last season overall ppp allowed was #6 for sg's #5 in isolation ppp #8 in opponent fg% and #3 in percent scored upon rating. Eric Gordon #5 overall, #1 in isolation, #3 in opp fg% and #8 in percent score upon rating. Stephen Jackson #6 overall, #9 in isolation, #5 in opp fg% and #6 in percent scored upon rating. 

    Batum has improved a lot on his defense but being ranked one of the 5 worst defenders in the league last year was brutal. 
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Choong Huh
    Choong Huh
    Posts: 67

    Posted 04/12/2012 5:48 PM

    He turned down 7.5M?!? Now I REALLY don't see him coming back to the team. You know every offseason there are teams that just offer nutty deals to players (Golden State - Kwame / NJ - Outlaw). I think Sacramento and especially Dallas will offer Batum 9.5M. Portland will be wise to not do that.

    On Nico's defense, I remember reading an article that showed how he is a bit overrated as an elite defender. He does have a defender's wingspan, and his flashy chase-down layup blocks can fool you. But I also do see opponent guards breezing by him for an open-lane layup. The best defender on our team is actually Matthews in my opinion. 
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  1. Choong Huh
    Choong Huh
    Posts: 67

    Posted 04/12/2012 5:52 PM

    hey man I think you forgot Battier on that defender list lol Maybe Paul George too?
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  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 04/12/2012 6:13 PM

    I would say Paul George as well and Battier has lost a few steps but he certainly can be better than Nico. I can say for sure Battier has never ever been on anyone worst defenders list like Nico was last year.
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Tobyus Sanchezo
    Tobyus Sanchezo
    Posts: 1669

    Posted 04/13/2012 11:37 PM

    You know, I think they're right...Batum might be worth 10.5 million.
    I am a fan of multiple All-Stars on the Blazers roster this season!
  1. jamsmashers
    jamsmashers
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    Posted 04/14/2012 3:42 PM

    thank you, haha finally someone thinks batum is worth having, i think we will keep him for 8 but either way we will keep him and itll be worth it
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  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
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    Posted 04/15/2012 12:31 PM

    Well we will see what will happen but if we pay him that much that much this team is screwed
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. ClydeFrog
    ClydeFrog
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    Posted 04/16/2012 1:18 PM

    Ok, this has been festering for a while, but why on earth would we match/offer $10 million/year to a career 10.3 ppg scorer? We all seem to be under teh assumption he's a great defender but if you look at his career stats, he's not even registering a steal or block per night (0.8 and 0.7 respectfully). In fact, this season is the first season he's averaged at least a block and a steal and he's right at the 1.0 average. And for being 6-8 with a wingspan out of this world, the best rebounding outing he's had for a season is just 4.6, which he's done this year but in over 30 minutes a night.

    He is a damn good 3-point shooter, never shooting lower then 37% from behind the arc, which occurred during his rookie year, but the problem is you have to beg and plead for him to shoot the rock! The last few years could be attributed to never having a defined role, always being in the shadow of other players. But with Roy gone and now Aldridge out for the season, the team is his. At worst, he's the No. 2 option. He knows we need him to produce offensively, yet he's still tentative to take over.

    Overall, I think he's a good third musketeer and fantastic fourth option. Unfortunately, Portland can't afford to a 3rd/4th option $10 million. I know worse players, such as Aaron Afflalo are making $9 million, but why should Portland have to pay for Denver's mistake? There are a lot of good wing options in the draft so if Batum is unwilling to take around $7-8 million, then peace. We can not go far in the playoffs with Batum as our second option. He simply does not have the killer instinct. Please do not overpay. Please.
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  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
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    Posted 04/16/2012 2:14 PM

    Very good point although I think Afflalo is probably a better player.
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. D_pickett
    D_pickett
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    Posted 04/16/2012 8:42 PM

    @ClydeFrog I noticed you mentioned the 10.3 career avg but forgot to mention his season avg has increased each year. And the 10.3 factors in a 5.4 ppg season when he was a rookie. We can forgive rookie seasons considering Lamarcus only averaged 9 ppg in his rookie season.

    Also, when you call Nic a 4th option, who are the other 3 (besides Aldridge)?

    @cmeese, I have to agree with Mieke, your math and your numbers are funky. I also think you are using the PER stat wrong. I don't know how you got a negative outcome out of a positive PER. How about we scrap the stupid NBA statcube numbers and watch the game. Does the team play better with Nic on the floor? Most of the time, yes. Does he still have room to improve? Yes.

    Speaking to Nic's defense, he actually has excellent defensive court-vision and is a good pressure defender as well as a skilled off-ball shot-blocker. I do think he could bring more effort EVERY offensive and defensive posession? Absolutely. But that's the only factor that's keeping him from being an elite SF in this league. Every time I see him glide to the hoop for a dunk or soar to block a shot halfway up the backboard, I think "why don't you do that every time?!" But he will continue to learn while working with ANY coaching staff, whether we keep him or not. One thing the numbers prove to me is that Nic's production will get better each season.

    All of that being said, I don't think he's indispensable. So, if you can find a better SF for a comparable contract, go get them. But looking at the upcoming FA pool of SFs, I think Nic is the best choice, and the only way to get a better player is to make a trade in which the Blazers would have to sacrifice WAY too much.
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  1. D_pickett
    D_pickett
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    Posted 04/16/2012 8:52 PM

    And note what John Hollinger says about PER:

    August 08, 2011 | ESPN Insider

    Bear in mind that PER is not the final, once-and-for-all evaluation of a player's accomplishments during the season. This is especially true for defensive specialists -- such as Quinton Ross and Jason Collins -- who don't get many blocks or steals.

    What PER can do, however, is summarize a player's statistical accomplishments in a single number. That allows us to unify the disparate data on each player we try to track in our heads (e.g., Corey Maggette: free-throw machine, good rebounder, decent shooter, poor passer, etc.) so that we can move on to evaluating what might be missing from the stats.


    So basically, it is ONLY number-based (which any knowledgeable basketball fan knows that the numbers aren't everything), and it cannot be used to determine intangible defensive effectiveness. And using opponent PER for blazers games would only work if Nic was THE ONLY person who defended that player in the game.

    Good try, but your numbers didn't really mean anything.
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  1. cmeese47
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    Posted 04/17/2012 12:16 AM

    One the opponents PER was only for the man Nico was responsible for guarding so the numbers do count for something. In addition, the negative PER was a comparison between Nico's PER and what his opponent produced. Aside from that his placement as a bad defender came from synergy.com defensive rankings which calculated his opponents points per possession, points per possession based on isolation defense, opponents fg%, and opponents percentage of scoring plays. 

    Not that it truly matters because you cannot pay 10 million dollars a season to a player as inconsistent and routinely passive as Batum. I refuse to believe that 14 points and 4.6 rebounds is worth 10 million a season. Yes Nico has loads of potential and great tools but unless the dude develops a drive different from what he currently has then all you are doing is paying for flashes of brilliance followed up by mediocrity. 
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. BlazerManiac
    BlazerManiac
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    Posted 04/17/2012 4:11 PM



    Posted By cmeese47 on 04/12/2012 11:53 AM
    Posted By Mieke Appel on 04/11/2012 3:57 PM
    You figures are nuts.  When Batum is sitting on the bench, our bench players are playing so you can't compare defensive and offense pers that way.  Nic is without question the number 2 player on our team and among the youngest, still only 23.  Keep him at any cost.

    Blazers Starting Five
    Felton plus minus net gain of 173
    Matthews plus minus net gain of 145
    Batum plus minus net loss of 195
    Aldridge plus minus net gain 219
    Pryzbilla plus minus net loss of 119

    Wallace plus minus net gain 249
    Camby plus minus net gain 9

    So you replace Joel with Camby and Batum is the only starter with a negative plus minus rating. It also makes sense that Joel's would be low considering how little offense he provides. 

    It sucks when the numbers tell a different story than what we want to believe

    I did not realize that Batun sucked that bad on Defense
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  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
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    Posted 04/18/2012 11:09 AM

    Posted By BlazerManiac on 04/17/2012 4:11 PM


    Posted By cmeese47 on 04/12/2012 11:53 AM
    Posted By Mieke Appel on 04/11/2012 3:57 PM
    You figures are nuts.  When Batum is sitting on the bench, our bench players are playing so you can't compare defensive and offense pers that way.  Nic is without question the number 2 player on our team and among the youngest, still only 23.  Keep him at any cost.

    Blazers Starting Five
    Felton plus minus net gain of 173
    Matthews plus minus net gain of 145
    Batum plus minus net loss of 195
    Aldridge plus minus net gain 219
    Pryzbilla plus minus net loss of 119

    Wallace plus minus net gain 249
    Camby plus minus net gain 9

    So you replace Joel with Camby and Batum is the only starter with a negative plus minus rating. It also makes sense that Joel's would be low considering how little offense he provides. 

    It sucks when the numbers tell a different story than what we want to believe

    I did not realize that Batun sucked that bad on Defense
    Not all his fault the guy has been ask to constantly guard people out of position. He also certainly has the physical tools to be a great defender I am just not sure he has the constant drive and motivation to reach his potential.
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. mbmurr1
    mbmurr1
    Posts: 530

    Posted 04/19/2012 3:35 PM

    Sign Batum at 7.5 million per for 5 years, sign Hickson for 5.5 million for 5 years, sign Dragic for 8 million for 5 years, sign Bayless or Brooks for 3.3 million for 4 years. Sign Illasova for 5.5 million for 4 years. Draft at the Center position (Davis, Drummond, Melo) and or the SG position (Beal, Rivers) Some people say trade them while the value is best for the team. I think considering all options is just wise business. This being said what value do Matthews, Aldridge, Smith have? ................ Lamarcus and smith to Charlotte for their first two picks in 2012 and their first pick in 2013.            Matthews to New Orleans for their first pick in 2013. How might the new Blazers look    Pg Dragic, Bayless/Brooks,  SG Beal, Elliott, Rivers,  C Drummond, Melo, Przybilla,   Sf Batum, Babbitt, Illasova   Pf Hickson, Illasova, Smith What do you think? 
    I am a fan of
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 04/19/2012 6:41 PM

    Don't have that kind of cap space not to mention Brooks is likely to make way more than 3.3 million at just 300k over his qualifying offer I have little doubt Phoenix would quickly match that offer. As far as Bayless is concerned we do not need him back but his qualifying offer alone is 4.2 mil. Batum is reported to have previously turned down a contract in that range. I think Dragic could be signed for 8 million easy and JJ would hopefully accept around the mid-level exception but I see him and Ilyasova both making around 7 million next season. 

    Money aside I am confused by your trades. Trading LA is one thing but who did you take number #1 if it was Drummond then we got terrible value for an all-star. Anthony Davis will be a star in this league and if Portland says we are starting over with him fine but not for Drummond who could fall to us with New Jersey's pick. 

    I would be fine with Portland trading talent and signing 3 rookies but they would need to be smart about it. 

    First you must take Anthony Davis #1 it is that simple. 
    Second for the #6 I would hope that Harrison Barnes is still available if not I am taking Lamb over Beal. Because one he is better off the dribble and his huge wingspan will help him develop defensively. 
    With the #11 I would take Meyers Leonard assuming Drummond is not available at #6 Leonard represent the second best center option in the draft. He is an excellent passer and a solid defender. I could very easily see him develop into a Greg Monroe type center. But this is a pick that you can move down with someone like Tony Mitchell would be a great pick up to go with Davis as he is an elite defender.


    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. uprised
    uprised
    Posts: 136

    Posted 04/20/2012 7:06 PM

    Around the time Batum was turning down 7.5 mil I thought that he may be worth 8 max.  He has shown nothing this year to make me believe he will ever be as good as he, his agent, or some people on this board think he is. 



    You can take the player out of the French League, but you can't take the French League out of the player.  I've been saying he's overhyped for years.  I'm right, and so is everybody else here who has the stones and the sense to break away from the pack of lemmings who parrot Mike Rice and his absurd fawning over Batum. 



    If you are willing to completely disregard the stats and live in a bizzaro land where Batum is a future all-star, or even a #2 option on the 10th place Blazers then you have that right.  I only hope some other team is smoking better crack that the Blazer front office has been, and puts Batum out of reach.  We are going to need that money to build this team around guys who are WINNERS in their heart.  THE LAST person we want developing our young talent and draft picks is a wilting lily like Batum.
    I am a fan of winning
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 04/21/2012 9:02 PM

    I am sick of waiting for potential the guy just does not seem to have the passion needed for success. 
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. schwabbii
    schwabbii
    Posts: 205

    Posted 04/22/2012 10:01 PM

    You guys are freaking sad. The kid is 23 years old! That's not too far from the age that Brandon Roy entered the league. "He hasn't lived up to expectations; He is a softy." Of course he is a softy! He is from France! Give the kid a break and realize that he still has a bit of time to grow. Would I give him 9 or 10 million to play here? Probably not but who else would we sign to fill his spot? I'm sorry but stop living in anger land and look at everything.
    I am a fan of
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 04/23/2012 11:15 AM

    If you pay him 40 million over 4 years and he does not develop how far have you set back your franchise. You are talking about locking up 17+% of your teams salary cap for at least 4 seasons. If Portland was to average 95 points per game for Batum to earn his percentage of that he would need to score around 16.3 points per game. For an average of 42 rebounds per game he would need 7.2 and for 21 assists per game that would be 3.6. 

    For the season he has not come close to those numbers. Based on his production in my opinion he is worth 7 million per season. Want to lower the risk put in some performance incentives. That way if he reaches his potential then he gets paid for it and if he doesn't well then Portland has flexibility.
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. schwabbii
    schwabbii
    Posts: 205

    Posted 04/23/2012 1:41 PM

    So in your opinion then, who should the blazers be looking to pick up in free agency to fill the SF spot? This free agency season is not a very good one for SF's to be honest. I feel like the top players to pick up are Jeff Green, Matt Barnes or...I'll just throw in Nocioni for good measure. Sorry but for me I would rather pick up Batum with a 8 million dollar contract and have him work with someone who can get his tenacity up. Or his muscle mass. 
    I am a fan of
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 04/23/2012 3:08 PM

    You are certainly right that there are not much better options this off-season at SF which is why I think Batum's price will go beyond 8 million a season. I would like to see Portland get someone like Tony Mitchell at the bottom of the first round (trade 2nd round picks to move up) or maybe have us work out a sign and trade with Nico to be able to get Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. 
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. BDawg
    BDawg
    Posts: 1593

    Posted 04/24/2012 5:51 AM

    Posted By uprised on 04/20/2012 7:06 PM
    Around the time Batum was turning down 7.5 mil I thought that he may be worth 8 max.  He has shown nothing this year to make me believe he will ever be as good as he, his agent, or some people on this board think he is. 



    You can take the player out of the French League, but you can't take the French League out of the player.  I've been saying he's overhyped for years.  I'm right, and so is everybody else here who has the stones and the sense to break away from the pack of lemmings who parrot Mike Rice and his absurd fawning over Batum. 



    If you are willing to completely disregard the stats and live in a bizzaro land where Batum is a future all-star, or even a #2 option on the 10th place Blazers then you have that right.  I only hope some other team is smoking better crack that the Blazer front office has been, and puts Batum out of reach.  We are going to need that money to build this team around guys who are WINNERS in their heart.  THE LAST person we want developing our young talent and draft picks is a wilting lily like Batum.
    Well said, and as I'm sure you've noticed...I completely agree.  Like I've said, with all of his physical abilities, the man lacks a motor, PERIOD. 

    I am a fan of players that play with PASSION and PRIDE
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