Lillard or Irving?
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  1. knorton181
    knorton181
    Posts: 264

    Posted 02/03/2013 10:31 AM

    Was on a different forum site, which I usually don't do, but I had googled Lillard or Irving to see if anyone else was thinking the same hting I was today. Which in my mind was that these are the two PGs of the future, both with pretty similar statistical rookie seasons. And on this forum, people were left and right "Irving, no brainer," without
    providing sustainable arument other than a couple AST% and per48min statements. Except for one guy, who provided some well thought discussion as to why he felt Lillard was. My point, which was his as well, was:

    Lillard's pace and style of play is a lack of selfishness.

    Wether or not alrdidge is on the team, or batum. The Blazers last here were horrific, I'm surprised they even got a sniff at making the playoffs. This year, they have THE WORST bench in the league. And have *5 Rookies*. I'm not making this a Blazer-Cavs argument. But point being, you can look at stats all day. A lot of flashy players have significantly high stats. But they are not the best team players, and do not see the game the same way because they are thinking of points, points, put up points. It's just a different outlook on the game, but it separates professionals from 'ballers'. They may have all of the ability in the world (John Wall, Westbrook, early D Wade, many others) but sometimes their vision is skewed, and it definitely comes out when times get tough.

    Point being, Lillard's pace is something you cannot statistically show, his eye for the game and not to mention his chemistry in the locker room with players. These are things that contributed to his immediate success. If he had taken 5 more attempts per game, or just dribbled up the court and passed the ball to an open player every time, but never followed the plays that the coach wanted. Then his stats, I can gaurantee you, would significantly increase. But he doesn't, he doesn't rush, he doesn't force anything (and even if he did, he would still make a ton of shots and still get a great amount of assists). But point being, how you judge "better" is completely personal to you. See when I judge, I take away the hype, I break it down with my own judgement and basketball knowledge from when I play, from learning from the experts, etc, and I see a kid who is the leader of a winning team right now. A rookie, I do not care if he is 27 when he came into the league. A rookie is a rookie, so is he going to be worse in the future because he decided to improve his life, his skills, and get a degree? Well I see this as something that contributed to him being a true leader. And making the Blazers a winning team, and making the players around him better. That to me is better, but to each his own.

    And I believe Kyrie could develop his pace better, could become the leader of his team, of a winning team, but I cannot gaurantee you that he will, so for now I have to say Lillard. And it's for the same reasons that coaches would pick him. You know he reminds be of Brandon Roy, no not just the blazers, but Roy came in and immediately lead his team, and had that certain pace and maturity about him, difference is he gained leadership when it was Alrdidge was a rookie,. Brandon was the most skilled player at the time. Lillard is not the best player (arguably) when he just walked in on day 1. He earned his spot among some really great players, and is now the face of that team. Now that's a player I want on my team.

    You can't teach the intangibles.

    I'm completely open to arguments, but if you're going to say Irving please provide something other than "look at his stats!".. Yes, yes we alllll know his per48min stats are better, thank you. And I'm fine with no points as to why you would pick lillard, because I realize that this is a Blazer forum, lol. But points as to why you would say Lillard would be nice, too.

    Anyways, so Lebron to the Cavs?!? Jk.. jk

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  1. riverman
    riverman
    Posts: 1431

    Posted 02/03/2013 12:53 PM

    One thing Lillard has over Irving this season is health. He's managed to stay on the court and Irving has had trouble doing that last season and this season. Irving is much faster than Lillard but I think Lillard will make his teammates better and has to because in Cleveland, Irving must be the man and in Portland Damian can defer to several guys including an allstar in LA.
    I am a fan of A team that plays like Tower of Power on a big stage on a good night
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 02/03/2013 4:53 PM

    Kyrie is a more athletic and skilled scorer.  Extremelly quick dribble and excellent at creating for himself.  And I think this is what people lean on when they say, "no brainer."  I want Lillard running my offense though.  He will get better as he learns the NBA game and builds chemistry with his team.  But Lillard's demeanor, pace, and just his feel for the game is something you just cannot teach.  Lillard is they guy to find ballance and elevate the game over everyone around him.  Kyrie is the guy that when you need points, he's the man. 

     

    There's no real winner in these types of discussions.  It's all subjective.  I appriciate what both do a lot.  And I could care less about who's better.  I believe Lillard is the point guard best suited for this team.

     

    When you look at assist/turnover ratio, Lillard is the man of the two. This is a better stat to judge a PG by, not scoring.

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 02/03/2013 4:57 PM

    Lillard is they guy to find ballance and elevate the game of everyone around him.  (I made a typo, but felt I needed to correct it because it the thing I find most valuable about Lillard.)
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 02/03/2013 9:12 PM

    I like Lillard by Irving is the more dynamic of the two. The Cavs roster is terrible so it is pretty much impossible to accurately compare the two because in Cleveland Irving is the guy in Portland LA and Batum get their numbers called before Lillard. Give this a few years and it might be as fun as Williams vs Paul was before CP3 ended that argument emphatically.

    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. DHawes22
    DHawes22
    Posts: 6488

    Posted 02/04/2013 11:22 AM

    Irving. I love Lillard but if I could have one point guard to build my team around for the future it's Kyrie. He's only 20 years old and an All-Star. He's just a more dynamic scorer, has shown the ability to hit multiple game-winners, and has amazing court vision. This isn't a knock on Dame. It just goes to show how great Irving is.
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  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 02/04/2013 11:43 AM

    Something I overlooked is defense. It feels like Lillard has been a revolving door this year on defense but in actuality his numbers look really good. Opponents are only shooting .446 EFG% on him which is well below league average. His PER against is only 13.5 which is very good and 5 points below what Irving is giving up. Lillard is giving up 8.8 ast per 48 minutes and an isolation FG% of 27% which is a little high but still his defense has statistically been the best on our team and much better than Irvings.

    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. knorton181
    knorton181
    Posts: 264

    Posted 02/04/2013 2:52 PM

    Posted By DHawes22 on 02/04/2013 11:22 AM
    Irving. I love Lillard but if I could have one point guard to build my team around for the future it's Kyrie. He's only 20 years old and an All-Star. He's just a more dynamic scorer, has shown the ability to hit multiple game-winners, and has amazing court vision. This isn't a knock on Dame. It just goes to show how great Irving is.


    The first part is factual, but that's why I mentioned a rookie is a rookie. 7 years in the league is still 7 years in the league. And yes Irving is an all-star.. Lillard was also mentioned, as a rookie, to be in the all-star game, but again, statistically there were better players to put forth in the All-Star game.

    As for the second part, Lillard has also shown the ability to hit game winning shots, and it's why it is even an argument that Lillard and Irving are comparable, because Lillard has shown the same clutch play, and can do much of the same things Irving can. But like I said above, if Lillard Wanted to drive the ball up and score more, dribble up the court and just pass it immediately, probly boost his assists, than he could. But they are different types of players because Lillard, 9 times out of 10, chooses patience before any of those things. His pace and poise are uncomparable for a rookie. It's not a fluke that every analyst and coach mentions that first when they talk about Lillard. And to me that's what separates him. He's a step ahead of the game, a step ahead of everyone else, as a rookie (which is what reminds me of BRoy). I gaurantee you if Irving matures and can gain that pace, which I believe he should *at some point* then his stats will not be as high, and he will not be quite as flashy.

    Just look at CP3, had incredible stats and was making people look like fools a few years ago, but yet he's at his peak now? Even though his stats are down? He's still UNarguably the best PG in the league right now and playing at the best level of his career (minus injuries). Why? Because everything he does helps his team win, and I mean everything, not just points on the board. The game is more than that. He stopped the flash, slowed the game down, and just takes control of every situation that he can, one step at a time. That's what Lillard Already does.

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  1. hakanyilmaz
    hakanyilmaz
    Posts: 13

    Posted 02/04/2013 2:56 PM

    Lillard.
  1. knorton181
    knorton181
    Posts: 264

    Posted 02/04/2013 2:58 PM

    Posted By Blazer Fanatic on 02/03/2013 4:53 PM

     

    There's no real winner in these types of discussions.  It's all subjective.  I appriciate what both do a lot.  And I could care less about who's better.  I believe Lillard is the point guard best suited for this team.

     



    I agree it is subjective, it's all personal preference. And I don't care who's better, but it's just fun to discuss. Make predictions for the future type thing.
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  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 02/06/2013 11:04 AM

    I gotta say Lillard,Irving just seems like a pure scorer type,while Lillard is a very controlled,very clutch,leader type. Not to say Irving isnt a leader,he probably is,he's just not a floor general like Lillard
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. schwabbii
    schwabbii
    Posts: 205

    Posted 02/07/2013 6:24 PM

    I'm totally biased on this one but I feel like lillard would have to be my choice. It feels like Damian still has a lot of growth in his passing game and it's only a matter of time until he improves his defense. He would be getting a lot more points if he was on the Cavs for sure!

    I am a fan of
  1. commontongue
    commontongue
    Posts: 1864

    Posted 02/07/2013 7:00 PM

    What separates the two is humility. Lillard knows he has more to learn, and Kyrie believes that he's arrived.
    I am a fan of our new roster playing with and for eachother.
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 02/08/2013 10:54 AM

    Kyrie has arrived

    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 02/08/2013 9:00 PM

    Yeah He's Arrived,but Arrived where,we dont know yet
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. BLASER
    BLASER
    Posts: 757

    Posted 02/09/2013 3:03 AM

    Posted By Curvychloe on 02/06/2013 11:04 AM
    I gotta say Lillard,Irving just seems like a pure scorer type,while Lillard is a very controlled,very clutch,leader type. Not to say Irving isnt a leader,he probably is,he's just not a floor general like Lillard

    I think thats debatable and shouldn't be discussed until irving is surrounded by more efficient scorers cause his team is terrible his starting line up is almost as bad as our bench is lol 

    I am a fan of defensive man beasts
  1. BLASER
    BLASER
    Posts: 757

    Posted 02/09/2013 3:05 AM

    just think of it like this the 4 players that are starting with him is much like the talent lillard was surrounded by in weber state thus making him have to be the main scoring option 

    I am a fan of defensive man beasts
  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 02/09/2013 8:50 AM

    I suppose,but who knows cause Cleveland isnt gonna ever have alot of players around him, they are cleveland,so he'll be their #1 #2 and #3 option for quite some time
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. BLASER
    BLASER
    Posts: 757

    Posted 02/10/2013 4:20 AM

    lol idk about that it wasn't too long ago that they actually had a solid cast around lebron plus if they draft smart they could build off that not that its really ever worked out in a while with okc being the exception 

    I am a fan of defensive man beasts
  1. BLASER
    BLASER
    Posts: 757

    Posted 02/10/2013 4:27 AM

    personally though I think kyrie will always be the more dominant scorer maybe not by a long shot but none the less he will always be that number 1 option on probably most teams he plays for while I think lillard will go on to have a more successful career (when I say that I mean win/loss ratio and possibly crossing my fingers on this one cause we all know we haven't had post season success in quite a while) and maybe create our best 2 man tandem since the porter and drexler days with aldridge and or batum 

    I am a fan of defensive man beasts
  1. BLASER
    BLASER
    Posts: 757

    Posted 02/11/2013 4:39 AM

    but anywayz I don't get the whole irving hype other then that guy can shoot the lights out and is super clutch but when talking about young gaurds I'd argue that both jrue holiday and john wall are better in the sense that they can put up close to 20 points and still average 7-8 assists on a good night 

    I am a fan of defensive man beasts
  1. Siccolo
    Siccolo
    Posts: 1250

    Posted 02/11/2013 4:47 PM

    John Wall and Jrue Holiday are always getting cut out when talking about elite young PGs

    I am a fan of This Quote "One Love. One Heart. One Human race."
  1. DHawes22
    DHawes22
    Posts: 6488

    Posted 02/14/2013 1:04 PM

    It'll be interesting to see those two play together in the Rising Stars game. Who plays the 2?
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  1. CarlJ1
    CarlJ1
    Posts: 399

    Posted 02/14/2013 5:07 PM

    I think they'll switch each half one will start at the 2 in the first half and the other will start in the second half.
    I am a fan of Respect, Loyalty, Honor & Pride the same thing the Blazer & their true fans are made of RIP CITY STAND UP!
  1. sug81
    sug81
    Posts: 254

    Posted 02/18/2013 12:22 PM

    Uhhhh, now listen I love Dame, but Kyrie is a machine, I would pick Dame out of loyalty, but Kyrie is a superstar. However, I think these two guys plus Stephen Curry, Westbrook, and Rose when he comes back are the future at the point spot.

    I am a fan of that GRIT & GRIND
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