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  1. knorton181
    knorton181
    Posts: 264

    Posted 12/29/2012 5:24 PM

    I think everyone is seriously over-critical of Meyers.. And for that matter I'll go out and say probably a majority of the NBA fanbase is too critical of Centers in general when they first come into the league. Everyone's expectation is different, that's fine, but he is 20 years old playing in the NBA and probably had a wapping total of 4 years at the 7 foot mark, probably under that. & He really only got 1 season to play at Illini. It's a working project, I can tell you I've personally seen improvements within the year already. I think we Blazer fans haven't seen a drafted Center in quite a while (& actually seen them play). Kind of not knowing what to expect. But I for sure believe in giving someone a full go before excommunicating him as a hopeless, lost-cause at starting. I had no idea what to expect. I made another thread awhile ago asking if he is going to be our starting C, and if so when? Hindsight isn't clearer right now, I couldn't tell you much more than I could then. And that's because there really hasn't been much to look back at.

    As for a current starting center to hold us over, Heck we could have had Omer Asik this whole time!

    I am a fan of
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/29/2012 5:43 PM

    Saying he's a project is fair critisism, as is saying he doesn't get position or rebounds near as well as we need him to right now.  I part ways with fans that take it a step further and suggest trades and make definitive statements that he can't improve significantly to where we need him to.

     

    Asik wasn't cheap, but in hind sight, I can say with confidence he would have been much better for Portland than Hibbert, to speak nothing of the offer we were willing to give Hibbert being a max deal.

     

    There aren't any better options available for what we need at center next year for what Asik would have brought.  Minnsota is gonna get screwed trying to sign Pekovic.  I hope we are the one's to do it. 

  1. riverman
    riverman
    Posts: 1431

    Posted 12/29/2012 5:52 PM

    I wanted Asik to come here too but he wasted no time signing with Houston. Pekovic is the guy I'd love to see the Blazers steal from Minny. Sometimes I wonder if Hibbert really didn't want to stay in Indiana and it's affected his game or drive. Pekovic clogs the lanes really well. 

    I am a fan of A team that plays like Tower of Power on a big stage on a good night
  1. riverman
    riverman
    Posts: 1431

    Posted 12/29/2012 5:53 PM

    I wanted Asik to come here too but he wasted no time signing with Houston. Pekovic is the guy I'd love to see the Blazers steal from Minny. Sometimes I wonder if Hibbert really didn't want to stay in Indiana and it's affected his game or drive. Pekovic clogs the lanes really well. 

    I am a fan of A team that plays like Tower of Power on a big stage on a good night
  1. riverman
    riverman
    Posts: 1431

    Posted 12/29/2012 5:54 PM

    Sorry for the double post, glitched upon send

    I am a fan of A team that plays like Tower of Power on a big stage on a good night
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/29/2012 6:12 PM

    Somethings are worth repeating. ; )
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 12/30/2012 10:00 AM

    I love hindsight last summer people blasted me daily for suggesting Hibbert was not worth a max contract. Furthermore, people hated the idea of bringing in Omar Asik. I saw a guy who is one of the leagues best post defenders and rebounders as someone who would be a perfect fit on this team. He was someone who could have taught Leonard defensive fundamentals all while being willing to give the rookie the playing time needed for him development. Additionally, I felt that because he got most of him points off ally oops and offensive rebounds that LA and Lillard would be free to be more aggressive offensively. 


    Now his defensive numbers have fallen a bit being outside of Chicago and not being paired up Taj Gibson but they remain solid. His rebounding numbers are in the top 5 per 48 minutes and he is scoring efficiently as well. 


    Another man that I had mentioned numerous times as being someone to pursue this summer or in trade before was Pekovic. People were worried last years numbers were a fluke but I saw a guy who got his aggression levels under control and stopped getting into foul trouble every time he was on the court. He is a solid but not spectacular rebounder who is capable of scoring in the post and guarding opposing bigs. He is not as skilled of a defender as Asik or as strong of a rebounder but he is better offensively and he is a huge 6'11" 290. 


    By signing Pekovic the Blazers can move JJ to the 6th man role. JJ could back up Pekovic at C and LA at PF and play somewhere between 20-30 minutes a night. These moves would likely eat up all or most of our cap space but would strengthen our bench and give us a legit C moving forward. With two-three picks in the draft and Pavlovic, Price, Barton, and Leonard all signed through next season we could throw together a bench. While it is unlikely these moves alone are enough to make us contenders it is a step in the right direction at least.

    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/30/2012 11:12 AM

    Even a broken clock is right twice a day.  ; )

     

    I don't think we can resign JJ if Pek accepts and offer sheet from Portland.  He's playing himself out of Portland's price range for a back up PF/C.

  1. riverman
    riverman
    Posts: 1431

    Posted 12/30/2012 11:25 AM

    Pekovic also won the award for NBA player most likely to be a bad guy in a James Bond movie! (from an episode of the basketball jones) If we keep JJ, and I hope we do, we at least need to bring in Hakeem to school Leonard, Freeland and JJ. If we could replace Jeffries with a big rebounding role player center we could keep JJ and upgrade the matchup weakness we have in the post.
    I am a fan of A team that plays like Tower of Power on a big stage on a good night
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 12/30/2012 11:27 AM

    If we can move Freeland and Price we can free up around 10 million in cap space while keeping JJ bird rights that should be enough to sign Pekovic and with JJ bird rights we can exceed the cap to resign him. Allowing us to get both players. If Pekovic wants more than 8-10 million a season he will likely be out of our price range.

    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/30/2012 11:33 AM

    If We are worried about losing Hickson cause he's too much money,how are we ever supposed to contend for a title? I mean the teams that compete for a title spend money,we need to add players not loose players and we need to add a few players if we want to contend not just 1 or 2
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. riverman
    riverman
    Posts: 1431

    Posted 12/30/2012 11:37 AM

    For Pekovic, I'd move Jeffries, Babbit and Smith in a heartbeat. I believe Babbit makes more than Freeland as a 3rd year vet and Freeland is cheap on a rookie deal. We need pt guards and Smith isn't really a pt guard. Slide Barton to pt guard off the bench
    I am a fan of A team that plays like Tower of Power on a big stage on a good night
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 12/30/2012 11:37 AM

    Fanatic I am glad you finally admitted your only right about as often as a broken clock it takes a truly humble person to admit that. 

    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/30/2012 4:05 PM

    Posted By cmeese47 on 12/30/2012 11:37 AM

    Fanatic I am glad you finally admitted your only right about as often as a broken clock it takes a truly humble person to admit that. 


    You hit "submit" (Posted 12/30/2012 11:27 AM) then sat at your computer for 10 minutes, and settle on "I know you are, but what I am?" 

     

    (crickets)

  1. BlazerManiac
    BlazerManiac
    Posts: 777

    Posted 12/30/2012 6:13 PM

    Posted By Curvychloe on 12/30/2012 11:33 AM
    If We are worried about losing Hickson cause he's too much money,how are we ever supposed to contend for a title? I mean the teams that compete for a title spend money,we need to add players not loose players and we need to add a few players if we want to contend not just 1 or 2

    This is what I said on another Post that Paul Allen is more concerned about paying at or below CAP to get a championship.  We have a proven commodity in JJ, why not sign him before season ends versus wait to see how are CAP situation resolves after the season?  If we wait until this summer, we take the chance on him be priced out of our range.

     

    Yes we got burned on Odom, he owes Roy the balance of his contract even though he was amnestied and plus he owes one more year on Nate’s contract.  So are we suppose to settle for mediocre at best this season or next?

     

    He is a proven commodity so why gamble?  SIGN HIM NOW!

     


    I am a fan of WES, the heart and soul of the Blazers.
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 12/30/2012 6:53 PM

    @riverman Freeland makes more than Luke does at 2.9 million this season versus Luke's 1.9 we have already declined Luke's team option so he is a free agent this summer whereas Freeland is signed for 2 more seasons. 

    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/30/2012 7:41 PM

    Posted By BlazerManiac on 12/30/2012 6:13 PM
    Posted By Curvychloe on 12/30/2012 11:33 AM
    If We are worried about losing Hickson cause he's too much money,how are we ever supposed to contend for a title? I mean the teams that compete for a title spend money,we need to add players not loose players and we need to add a few players if we want to contend not just 1 or 2

    This is what I said on another Post that Paul Allen is more concerned about paying at or below CAP to get a championship.  We have a proven commodity in JJ, why not sign him before season ends versus wait to see how are CAP situation resolves after the season?  If we wait until this summer, we take the chance on him be priced out of our range.

     

    Yes we got burned on Odom, he owes Roy the balance of his contract even though he was amnestied and plus he owes one more year on Nate’s contract.  So are we suppose to settle for mediocre at best this season or next?

     

    He is a proven commodity so why gamble?  SIGN HIM NOW!

     



    Why do you ask questions when the answers are already in this thread?  There are rules.  I explained them extensively.  Is the issue Math, or English?  We have $13.5 mil in cap.  We do not have a starting Center.  We do not have a back up SG, or 6th man.  We are extremely weak at back up PG, and weak at back up SF.  How do you know JJ has not already priced himself out of our range?  How do you know we won't sign him before the season ends?  What do you know that Olshey doesn't?  Do share. 

     

    Do you think JJ is a starting center on a championship team?  If you answered no, then you have an issue with your own logic, not Paul Allen.  If you answered yes, then there's really no point in discussing basketball with you.

     

    You don't throw money at something, and then try to figure out what the problem is.  If JJ were a Center, if JJ was the missing piece at Center for a championship Blazer team, don't you think we would have signed him for more than 1 year and 4 mil?  I don't get the impression from your posts that you understand the situation, despite my best efforts to explain it to you.  You just want Paul Allen to spend his money.  Guess what you spend your money on once you hit the cap?  Nothing but 1 small exception (2-5 mil), and resigning your own players.  If you think this current roster is a championship team... yeah, sign JJ.  But we are not a championship team with this roster. Blowing 8-10 mil on JJ, who isn't a center, doesn't get us there.  After we sign a roster of fillers, it just puts us over the cap with nothing more to show for it that what we already have.  We cannot bring any free agents to the team.  We have to pray for the lottery, that another Damian Lillard will fall out of the sky at the 12th pick.

     

    What would you say if Allen was over the luxury tax, and paying threw the nose, like several teams in the NBA and the Blazers weren't a top 4 seed?  Then what would the problem be?  You'd be complaining the team stunk.  And you'd blame Paul Allen for that.  There is no pleasing you.

     

    And how did we get burned on Lamar Odom?  You mean Greg Oden?  I think we identified the problem.

     

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/30/2012 7:44 PM

    Posted By cmeese47 on 12/30/2012 6:53 PM

    @riverman Freeland makes more than Luke does at 2.9 million this season versus Luke's 1.9 we have already declined Luke's team option so he is a free agent this summer whereas Freeland is signed for 2 more seasons. 



    That does not preclude Portland from dealing Luke in a sign-and-trade, or signing him after Olshey makes other moves higher on his priority list.  See: fattie Felton.
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 12/30/2012 9:40 PM

    We can resign him but we cannot do a sign and trade since we declined his option.
    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. ubahn82
    ubahn82
    Posts: 27

    Posted 12/30/2012 10:33 PM

    We can sign and trade him because we declined his option.  If we picked up his option, he would not be a free agent this summer.  Plus we have his bird rights, so a sign and trade makes sense.

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/30/2012 10:41 PM

    Posted By cmeese47 on 12/30/2012 9:40 PM
    We can resign him but we cannot do a sign and trade since we declined his option.

    Again, we're getting closer to why we seem to always disagree.  These are the facts:

     

    A sign-and-trade deal can be made with a free agent who has been renounced, as long as all the above criteria are met. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for at least three seasons (not including any option year) and no longer than four seasons. The first year of the contract must be fully guaranteed, but the remaining seasons can be non-guaranteed. The combination of a three-year minimum with a one-year guarantee ensures that the player's new team cannot acquire the player's Bird rights any sooner than if they had signed him directly. - http://www.cbafaq.com 

    Each player maintains their Bird Rights until they sign with an offer sheet with another team.  Renouncing the option next season simply means we do not have the right of first refusal should they sign an offer sheet with another team.

     

    The benifit for renouncing Babbitt, Smith, and Williams, is three fold:

    1. It will free up cap space that would otherwise be taken up by their cap holds

    2. We can resign them for a lesser amount than their cap holds

    3. We can resign them over the cap because we retain their Bird Rights

     

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/30/2012 10:46 PM

    The following are the "above criteria" mentioned in the first sentence of italics in my previous post:

     

  2. The player must re-sign with his prior team -- a team cannot include another team's free agent in a sign-and-trade.
  3. The player must finish the preceding season with that team (deals are no longer allowed that sign-and-trade players who are out of the league
  4. The player cannot be a restricted free agent who has signed an offer sheet with another team
  5. Starting in 2013-14, the team receiving the player cannot be above the "apron" ($4 million above the tax level) after the trade.
  6. Starting in 2013-14, the team cannot receive a player in a sign-and-trade if they have used the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception that season.
  7. The trade must be completed prior to the first game of the regular season (sign-and-trades are not allowed once the season begins).
  8. The player cannot be signed using the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, or any exception that cannot be used to offer a three-year contract.
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/30/2012 11:31 PM

    I didn't want to really get into it, but the reality is the appx $13.5 mil isn't really what we'll have to work with.

     

    With 9 guys signed.  If we keep our draft pick, finishing in the bottom 12, there will be a cap hold for where ever that pick should land 1-12.  There is also a minimum cap hold placed for a 12 man roster, which is whatever the minimum salary is for a player with zero years in the league for a given year.  Next year that minimum salary is $473,604k.  So, the most available cap space, assuming we lose our pick to the Bobcats, would put are available cap around 12 mil.  The point is, there are several variables, and best case scenario, we're looking at 10-12 mil in avaiable cap space.

     

    People that are adimate about resigning JJ, give me a price for what you would sign JJ for.

    I hear "SIGN JJ," but I don't hear for how much you think we should sign him for, or how much JJ would actually accept.  If you are't able to put a number on it publicly, at least do it privately.  Then subtract that number from $12 mil, and ask yourself how you sign a starting Center, 6th man, back up PG, ect..., with the remaining cap space.

     

    Friendly reminder:  Please assume, as Olshey has stated, that Wes, Batum, LA, and Lillard are not being traded.

     

    Aside:  Why did we release Babbitt, Smith, and Williams?  Their cap holds/team options would have reduced our available cap by nearly $7 mil.  Kind of a no-brainer to renounce them.

  1. sedare
    sedare
    Posts: 53

    Posted 12/30/2012 11:41 PM

    I'm going to pretty much not attempt to refute anything... and just offer an outside perspective.

    1. I am impressed with Babbit and his aggressive rebounding. Its too bad in the games I HAVE seen... that he has not hit a mid range jumper. Its like opposing teams are forcing him to pump fake and take the 17 and count on the EZ box out. At least he is getting boards now.

    2. I love JJ, but your right BF. Not a center. 6th man... yes please. :)

    3. About Minn - If BRoy was a MLE, that 5 mill did not count towards their cap... (I think I got this right... now my question) Next season if the team picks up the option, that would affect cap just like a normal? The MLE would only affect the first season with the exception? If that is so, and he does not retire like he stated yesterday, and MINN does keep him, that is a "How much more so" they cant keep Pekovic to me. If they DO NOT keep Roy, does that leave MINN more space to keep him? Or are they already pushed to close to match offers?

    3 1/2. Stupid question about MLE while I am here, how are MLE's acquired?

    4. Wes is a role playing Starting SG. Just his motivation to try and vocally lead this team (IMO) has had a very positive effect on the youth. His desire to help was shown during summer league, and I think it paid off. I was sad to see his uninjured streak end, but when he comes back, I think the time the backups ( Claver/Barton ) had to develop has been a very good barometer of progress.... of just how much more work is needed.

    5. Really liked how Price showed up on defense vs Philly, but his role seemed to be more of a PG, and Lillard was played off the ball as SG. Not sure what I think of Price/Lill back court, but strangely it was working... and might keep working if Batum is distributing. However, Price had better improve his FT if he wants to get a PG role on this team moving past 2013.

    6. I want to give Elliot one decent chance if his body doesn't fall apart again. He may just be a bench SF/SG

    7. I didn't have anything to add about Meyers, LA (apart from my thoughts that sometimes he just doesn't put emotion into the game as much as JJ/Wes, seems not at 100% mentally, but I am biased about this), 

    I don't mind you picking my points apart, and tossing them aside, just trying to interject some new thoughts here. You said you were looking for ideas to fix what the blazers don't have and something in my head might bump you in the right direction. :)


    If I think of more I will type it tomorrow night.

    I am a fan of standing by the team in my home town, Portland.
  1. ubahn82
    ubahn82
    Posts: 27

    Posted 12/31/2012 1:58 AM

    Posted By Blazer Fanatic on 12/30/2012 11:31 PM

    People that are adimate about resigning JJ, give me a price for what you would sign JJ for.

    I hear "SIGN JJ," but I don't hear for how much you think we should sign him for, or how much JJ would actually accept.  If you are't able to put a number on it publicly, at least do it privately.  Then subtract that number from $12 mil, and ask yourself how you sign a starting Center, 6th man, back up PG, ect..., with the remaining cap space.

     

    Friendly reminder:  Please assume, as Olshey has stated, that Wes, Batum, LA, and Lillard are not being traded.

     

    Aside:  Why did we release Babbitt, Smith, and Williams?  Their cap holds/team options would have reduced our available cap by nearly $7 mil.  Kind of a no-brainer to renounce them.

    From what I have been reading, I think every Blazer fan (including Fanatic) can agree that JJ has earned a long term roster spot and we would all love to see him in a Blazer uniform next year


    it seems that the problem here is a misunderstanding of how the salary cap actually works in the NBA.  Someone wrote in one the threads the "owner can do whatever they want, that is what is so nice about being an owner."  Or something along those lines.  I can't seem to find the exact post now.  This is entirely untrue.  Granted it is a soft salary cap, but this is not the MLB.  The owner cannot just pay the players whatever they wish and just pay luxury tax for going over the cap.  There is a true cap.  You can only go over this cap if you have an exception.  Such as JJ's bird rights.  But, this exception cannot be applied until the cap is reached.  Therefore, the problem with re-signing JJ too soon is his salary will eat into whatever cap space we have remaining.  Assuming we have 12 mil to sign free agents with, if we sign JJ to a say 6 mil/yr contract (he is currently playing himself into much more than that) before we sign anyone else, that will leave us 6 mil to sign other people, which clearly is not enough money to meet our needs, of which should be obvious to all of us, and has been spelled out very well by Fanatic.  However, if we allow him to go to free agency, we can use up the entire 12 mil on other players, and even with no cap space left, go over the cap to sign JJ to whatever he is worth to us, by using his bird rights.  Obviously, the problem then becomes, will JJ find greener pastures (i.e. more money/playing time) to go to?


    So what should we do, a) lock-up JJ long term and give up the flexibility we have in free agency? or b) try to fill our many needs, with the hope that JJ will do what is right and re-sign with us?


    My opinion: b

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/31/2012 3:05 AM

    That's a fair take sedare.

    I have seen Babbit step inside and hit that mid-range jumper a few times. But I know what you mean. When you don't see it often enough, it's pretty frustrating. I don't think Babbitt is worth what his cap hold would have been. I could see the Blazers utilizing his Bird Rights and resigning him to a lesser amount, over the cap, assuming Luke doesn't get a better offer that he wants to take.

    Everyone appriciates JJs aggressiveness and his effort. It's difficult to discuss what to do with JJ, because many fans can't separate "wants" from "needs" and don't take the time to crunch the numbers and assess the implications fully.

    Teams cannot exceed the cap without an exception. Exceptions are basically a device that allow teams who are over the cap to function. There's a handy FAQ you can read and become a virtual salary cap expert in a matter of minutes. It's very user friendly. Just google CBAFAQ. Question 25 explains sustincly what the exceptions are and the conditions required to use them. There's basically 3 MLEs. One if you're under the cap (Room - $2.575 mil), one if you're over the cap but under the apron (non-taxpayer - $5 mil), and one if you're over the apron (taxpayer - $3.09 mil). So a team cannot have but one MLE. You're either under, over, or WAY over the cap.

    Minn is over the cap this year. Were they to pick up his option next year, which I cannot see how or why, because they will be over the cap at the end of the season, they can use the non-taxpayer (currently $5 mil) again. And they would have to use the MLE on Roy again. The non-tax payer MLE can be split amonst players or used on just one, and used every year that a team is over the cap but under the apron. There's no loophole or trick to use this $5 mil non-taxpayer MLE on Roy, so that they can have $5 mil in available cap.

    Pekovic already has a $6 mil cap hold counting towards their salary. Meaning if they signed him for 10 mil, they'll be adding $4 mil more to whatever total there salary was when they started free agency due to Pek. Minnesota can sign him for any amount over the cap up to a max contract because they own his Bird Rights (this is another type of exception). Should Portland come in with a 10 mil+ offer? I would. Minnesota looks almost as bad as the Blazers did the year we had all those injuries, only they've got some "issues" and they are going to go way over the cap if they sign Pek. All the more reason I think they have to waive Roy.

    This problem with the Blazers roster is Wes is injured, and we don't have a shooting guard we can start. We are really hurting for a legit scorer, preferably a PG/SG combo, off the bench. Right now, the bench can't even hold a lead, let alone extend one. We've had many roll through Portland but none that really panned out. I kinda miss me some Pattie Mills though. Kid is lights out when he comes in the game for the Spurs.

    Ya, Lillard moves to SG when Price is in the game. It's a really small line up, sort of like throwing a zone defense out there for a few plays. Stotts is doing what he can to make some Magic happen and get a run going.

    Your thinking on Elliot is probably the best guess of what will happen.

    With LA, it's just his personality. I watched some of those UFC fights where the one guys stands there all calm, and the other guys is foaming at the mouth, jumping around, flexing, grunting... the bell rings and the calm guy just beat the tar out of him. I think it's a percpetion that many fans have of LA, that he's the calm guy, but I wouldn't agree that he doesn't give 100%, or doesn't fight hard, and won't knock out some frothing, bearded Kevin Love. What's with that anyway? Guy looks like a grumpy lumberjack who should prolly be mining for gold in Alaska and screaming at everyone he works with.

    I appriciate your take. Refreshing. It's frustrating to be frustrated when Blazers aren't as successful as we believe they can be and constantly see people indiscriminately complaining, if not flaming Blazer players, coaches, and the owner, or suggesting trades like this is a video game. Kinda misses the point of being a fan of the team in the first place.

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/31/2012 3:12 AM

    So what should we do, a) lock-up JJ long term and give up the flexibility we have in free agency? or b) try to fill our many needs, with the hope that JJ will do what is right and re-sign with us?

    My opinion: b

    Is if fair to assume that you believe that JJ is a starting center on a championship contending team?

     

    Let's look at it this way, despite it being easier said than done, and say, what if we could sign a Center like Pekovic.  You can only sign one, do you sign Pekovic, or JJ?

     

    You say JJ correct?

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/31/2012 3:50 AM

    I read that backward ubahn.  Sorry.  You would try to fill our NEEDS, and hope we can work a deal with JJ, who would be a huge asset and give us that Clipper-esque roster that makes you ask, "How the heck did they sign all those guys?!?!"   I had to read the body of your post 3 times, because I couldn't tell if you were quoting me or you were actually agreeing with me in your own words.  It appears the later would be the case.  I feel like I'm the only saying it.  It was a bit shocking, and I responded before it wore off.  : )

     

    The thing I can't understand, is if you didn't read my posts at all, one might have the impression that the Blazers are the only team in the NBA with this salary cap issue.  I hope the days of the "big 3" are over with, and the "medium 5" team the Blazer are building will be the NBA of the future. 

     

    The league was becoming unsustainable.  Too many teams were losing money.  I think this will be great for the league and the fans to create a more competative league with greater parity (especially when it comes to the play offs and NBA championship.)

  1. ubahn82
    ubahn82
    Posts: 27

    Posted 12/31/2012 6:54 AM

    Haha, I'm glad you re-read my post and re-assessed what I was trying to say.  I thought I would try to clarify what you were saying to everyone else.  Maybe I made things worse.  I hope not.

    And reading is definitely a good thing,  for those interested,  cbafaq or wikipedia's NBA salary cap entry, both great sources as those rules will very much affect the Blazers this year

    I agree, the new CBA seems to be a step in the right direction for the league, although I am not liking the current system of aging superstars banding together to try to win a (or another) ring before they get too far over the hill thing, a la the Lakers. I understand it, plus Lakers fans just make it that much worse.

    But back on topic, I'm a huge fan of JJ, love the heart he brings to the game.  But, even he says that he is a PF and not a C.  With the cap rules, I think the front office has no choice but to let him test the free agent market.  What people need to understand it that if JJ leaves, it's because he found an offer (i.e. a starting 4 spot with better pay)  that he liked more than what the Blazers had to offer him.  It would also be him leaving the Blazers, not the other way around.


    Although, as a Blazers fan, it's hard to comprehend that someone could like something better than the Blazers

  1. BLASER
    BLASER
    Posts: 757

    Posted 12/31/2012 7:29 AM

    if we couldn't keep hickson couldn't we just do a sign and trade so he doesn't leave for nothing? 

    I am a fan of defensive man beasts
  1. ubahn82
    ubahn82
    Posts: 27

    Posted 12/31/2012 7:40 AM

    Ah my mistake, as stated in another thread by Fanatic, JJ's bird rights would have to be renounced in order to have that additional cap space available for meet our needs.  Misread that part.  We would be left with the MLE to re-sign him after signing other free agents, which further limits our ability to resign him.  


    However, my opinion that with the current incarnation of the Blazers and our goals, of championship contention, still stands.  Olshey has no choice but to renounce the bird rights and hope JJ makes the right choice in the end.

  1. BlazerManiac
    BlazerManiac
    Posts: 777

    Posted 12/31/2012 7:53 AM

     

    Again Fanatic if people are not sharing your opinion we are either disloyal, being critical of players or thier is no pleasing us,

     

    We should call this board "imablazerfanaticfan"

     

    I guess the purpose of this bord is for us to only share opions that don't upset your views.

    I am a fan of WES, the heart and soul of the Blazers.
  1. joe.k
    joe.k
    Posts: 14

    Posted 12/31/2012 8:01 AM

    @Blazer fanatic - i dunno... Pek can be a beast on defense also... and i think he has more upside than JJ you would take JJ over him?
    I am a fan of Finding our new Brandon Roy - Thanks Damian!
  1. ubahn82
    ubahn82
    Posts: 27

    Posted 12/31/2012 9:23 AM

    @joe.k - I think she was challenging me because she thought I was saying JJ over Pek.


    Her point all along has been that we need a quality center like Pekovic, and JJ is not it.  JJ said himself that he is a PF.  He does not like having to play center, but he is a upstanding human being and is doing what is asked of him to the best of his ability. 


    @Blaser - That's exactly why there are JJ trade rumors.  Because we need more assets to move towards contention, and the only way to accumulate more assets and keep JJ is to risk letting him walk for nothing.  Then is it better to just give up on keeping JJ and use him to accumulate more assets?  And if the answer is yes, is it better to trade him by the trade deadline? or sign and trade during free agency? And who would we try to get in return.  I think trading him by the deadline is not a good idea, because his current salary is only 4 mil, not much we can get in return for that.  But not trading at the deadline means we risk letting him walk. What to do?

  1. Curvychloe
    Curvychloe
    Posts: 610

    Posted 12/31/2012 9:52 AM

    I'd take JJ over Peckovic anyday. Come on,the track record of these big europeon guys aint that great. With the exception of Sabonis. Look how JJ is playing, to let a player like that go? Come on, Teams go over the cap all the time, I mean look at all the players the clippers have,over the offseason they just kept signing,and signing,and signing people,Miami has lebron-bosh-wade and they still were able to sign ray allen. This notion that we cant keep hickson cause of the money. I see where its coming from,but if we EVER,EEEEEVVVEEEERR wanna be a top tier team in the NBA again like we used to,then Spend we must,or else get used to being a lottery/8th seed
    I am a fan of Sexy Blondes at courtside
  1. cmeese47
    cmeese47
    Posts: 2735

    Posted 12/31/2012 10:12 AM

    JJ is playing out of position because he is a team player. LA is our superstar so he gets the diva treatment, rather than him willingly stepping up to play the five like Garnett did in Boston. Therefore, JJ who is not suited for the five is forced to play out of position. What he has accomplished this season has been impressive and the Blazers would be wise to consider the sacrifices JJ has made to fit in. The best move would probably be to trade JJ at the deadline for picks or bench pieces and then hope we can resign him in the off season. 

    I am a fan of Getting Defensive Players This Summer.
  1. riverman
    riverman
    Posts: 1431

    Posted 12/31/2012 10:53 AM

    Anyone who is familiar with my posts knows I'm not a numbers cruncher when it comes to stats but when we talk about cap space and JJ aren't we forgetting to subtract what he makes now from the raise he'll expect next season? I think he makes 4.5mil ??? so if he makes 7.2 next year we only need 2.7mil to resign him over what we're spending now? I wasn't aware that Freeland made more than Babbit...I thought 3 year vets made more than rookies? At any rate, I don't see any problem resigning JJ and keeping all our assets while shoring up the bench by waiving bench players, trading them or signing a guy like Pekovic to add to the core. Also something to keep in mind this season is that JJ, Luke and Nolan are all playing for a contract. Of the 3, to me, JJ has earned it
    I am a fan of A team that plays like Tower of Power on a big stage on a good night
  1. joe.k
    joe.k
    Posts: 14

    Posted 12/31/2012 11:36 AM

    @ubah - got it... thanks for filling me in. guess i shouldnt just post without reading the whole post!

    id love to see JJ sell himself as a PF this offseason, I feel like teams would love him as a center - hope he gets what he wants 

    I am a fan of Finding our new Brandon Roy - Thanks Damian!
  1. joe.k
    joe.k
    Posts: 14

    Posted 12/31/2012 11:37 AM

    well you're forgetting about the quick 1-2 yr window a team can have with the right draft picks. OKC was championship ready without spending too much. now of course, they're in the money game too, but with Damian running the show, if we get another quality player, who knows... we might be able to make some noise for a year or two without having to spend
    I am a fan of Finding our new Brandon Roy - Thanks Damian!
  1. knorton181
    knorton181
    Posts: 264

    Posted 12/31/2012 12:06 PM

    Just saying, if you're an NBA player you don't sign a deal with one team because of a oh they've had my back and gave me a chance when not many would have, or oh but the fanbase loves me. Over the chance, if not a gaurantee, to start on another team in the NBA. There's no way he unseats Aldridge, and everyone keeps saying we bring in Pekovic or someone to add to the core, which I'm sure he is aware of, too.

     

    Cap aside:

    If JJ gets the chance to start PF on another team this offseason, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind he takes that gig in a heartbeat. Everyone talking about signing JJ, I'm starting to believe that JJ would accept a 5-7 mil 4 year deal, I don't think it's about the money with him, or like "look at my numbers, I am one of the best in the league I deserve to get that" yadayada.. JJ wants to play the game, he wants to play HIS game.

    I believe we probably would sign him IF WE COULD. The purpose of trading him is that we don't lose now one of the upper-echelon players in the league for nothing. Olshey's not an idiot. There are no restrictions with JJ. 

    There's only 1 way I see us not trading him :
     if JJ makes a promise that, as long as whatever JJ wants and asks for (20-30 mins per game, starting center, a significant role, etc.) is gauranteed, he will resign next year under bird rights.

    The odds of him walking far outweigh the odds of him staying. It would be ludicrous otherwise to think he wouldn't walk to a team to play longterm at his position, potentially or gauranteeing him to starting. And I think HE believes the he is a starter.

    I am a fan of
  1. BLASER
    BLASER
    Posts: 757

    Posted 12/31/2012 12:13 PM

    Posted By ubahn82 on 12/31/2012 9:23 AM

    @joe.k - I think she was challenging me because she thought I was saying JJ over Pek.


    Her point all along has been that we need a quality center like Pekovic, and JJ is not it.  JJ said himself that he is a PF.  He does not like having to play center, but he is a upstanding human being and is doing what is asked of him to the best of his ability. 


    @Blaser - That's exactly why there are JJ trade rumors.  Because we need more assets to move towards contention, and the only way to accumulate more assets and keep JJ is to risk letting him walk for nothing.  Then is it better to just give up on keeping JJ and use him to accumulate more assets?  And if the answer is yes, is it better to trade him by the trade deadline? or sign and trade during free agency? And who would we try to get in return.  I think trading him by the deadline is not a good idea, because his current salary is only 4 mil, not much we can get in return for that.  But not trading at the deadline means we risk letting him walk. What to do?


    idk though I heard j.j. has the power to veto any trade though 

    I am a fan of defensive man beasts
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/31/2012 2:17 PM

    Posted By joe.k on 12/31/2012 8:01 AM
    @Blazer fanatic - i dunno... Pek can be a beast on defense also... and i think he has more upside than JJ you would take JJ over him?


    Sorry for the misunderstanding.  I read the exact opposite of what ubahn was saying.  I agree with ubahn that JJ is not a center, and that we need a center (like Pekovic), and have other needs as well. I am slighly dyslexic, which often plays a part in my poor orthography too. : (

     

    No.  I would take a legit center over JJ, especially Pekovic.

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/31/2012 2:21 PM

    A sign and trade with JJ would allow an over the cap team to move a larger contract for JJ.  Say and 7-8 mil verus 4 mil.  We could also include other players, like say Babbit, or Freeland.  And get a player in return that has a 12+ mil contract in a sign-and-trade.  Everyone gets paid, and we get the 12 mil center this team despiritely needs to be a contender.
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/31/2012 2:29 PM

    Posted By ubahn82 on 12/31/2012 7:40 AM

    Ah my mistake, as stated in another thread by Fanatic, JJ's bird rights would have to be renounced in order to have that additional cap space available for meet our needs.  Misread that part.  We would be left with the MLE to re-sign him after signing other free agents, which further limits our ability to resign him.  

    However, my opinion that with the current incarnation of the Blazers and our goals, of championship contention, still stands.  Olshey has no choice but to renounce the bird rights and hope JJ makes the right choice in the end.


    I don't know if that's the case.  I'll have to look.  It sounds right.  But IF JJ doesn't sign an offersheet with another team, can we go over the cap to resign him?  That's a good question.  I was under the impression we could not go over the cap to resign him... but if he doesn't change teams, why would we not be able to go over the cap to sign him?  I think I probably looked this up and answered my own question earlier.  I think it's one of those loop holes they closed under the new CBA.

     

    The Blazers will be under the cap by season's end, so the MLE available to us is only the Room $2.5 mil exception, which is not exactly what JJ is worth.

     

    And that last sentence is what many fans struggle to wrap their head around.  Which is what motivated me to post this thread.  To try and explain the situation.  You often here that Blazer fans are some of the most informed in the NBA.  I'm just trying to do my part.

  1. joe.k
    joe.k
    Posts: 14

    Posted 12/31/2012 3:19 PM

    Posted By Blazer Fanatic on 12/31/2012 2:21 PM
    A sign and trade with JJ would allow an over the cap team to move a larger contract for JJ.  Say and 7-8 mil verus 4 mil.  We could also include other players, like say Babbit, or Freeland.  And get a player in return that has a 12+ mil contract in a sign-and-trade.  Everyone gets paid, and we get the 12 mil center this team despiritely needs to be a contender.

    You really think that it would be wise to package some 'semi-decent' bench player for a strong startign center? I mean I know babbit/Freeland aren't really doing anything now, but we have a strong starting 5 now, I feel that without a bench, even having a better center won't make us any better.


    What do you think?

    I am a fan of Finding our new Brandon Roy - Thanks Damian!
  1. joe.k
    joe.k
    Posts: 14

    Posted 12/31/2012 3:23 PM

    @Blaser - do you think JJ would still be a beast if we tried trading him, and he said no? at that point he might be completely pissed at us... (then again, that might mean he plays his heart out for the remainder of this season so he can get a sweet deal for next yr

    I am a fan of Finding our new Brandon Roy - Thanks Damian!
  1. sedare
    sedare
    Posts: 53

    Posted 12/31/2012 4:02 PM

    So... Ok scenario to help me grasp this. (Something that might actually work after I found a trade machine lol)


    Hawks get JJ with extras,  Hawks dont have a true PF. And only J Smith at SF. They are over cap already anyways. 

    Blazers get Horford. Hes making 12 Mill over 4. Continue developing bench and have a centerpiece.

    What would JJ have to approve to allow this to happen? Would he have to sign and trade? or just go willingly?

    I am a fan of standing by the team in my home town, Portland.
  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/31/2012 4:04 PM

    Posted By BlazerManiac on 12/31/2012 7:53 AM

    Again Fanatic if people are not sharing your opinion we are either disloyal, being critical of players or thier is no pleasing us,

     

    We should call this board "imablazerfanaticfan"

     

    I guess the purpose of this bord is for us to only share opions that don't upset your views.

     

    How is this response any different than what you are accusing me of?  Take care in pointing the finger, as you often have 3 pointing back at you, and a thumb up at God or some indiscriminate individual.

     

    You were one of the first to dismiss what I had posted regarding Batums stats in relation to the NBA.  I had just started posting on this board.  First impressions...

     

    You called me a "kool-aid-drinker" and said I was wearing "rose quarted glasses"  (although you probably meant rose colored).

    Posted by BlazerManiac on 12/07/2012 10:37 AM

    He [Batum] does nto have the mental toughness most of the time to play in this league. I guess I have to accept that the Batum Lovers will always look at potential and not reality of the situation.

     

    Dismissive, inflamatory... wrong headed even.  But you're entited to your opinion, just as I am entitled to be dismissive and critical of it.  Sorry that upsets you.

     

    I also did NOT say Paul Allen doesn't want to win, and doesn't want to spend money. I did NOT say Batum is needs to be traded this year when that is NOT even a possibility. I don't make statements advocating we trade the Lamarcus, the best player on the team, when there is no evidence to suggest that is either the problem and you provide no solutions that would make the Blazers better.  If I didn't know better, being new to the board, I would think it was the "imaBlazerManiac" forum.  I actually went so far as to point that out to you.  A little accountability goes a long way.

     

    And I never said "disloyal," but I am certain I said, "unrealistic" a few times. And I am critical of arguments that aren't really arguments at all, but complaints which offering no real solutions, and most often fail to account for the new CBA and salary cap, and as if throwing money at a problem or blowing up the team fixes anything. There is also a distinct difference between bashing on a player and being critical of their play.  It's becoming clear that if someone is critical of your opinion, then you have an issue, and there's a different set of rules when you are critical of other peoples opinion.  I don't doubt this inconsistancy is what causes so much confussion for you as I attempt to explain how the new CBA affects the Blazers. 

     

    This is the "iamatrailblazerfan" board.  I seriously hope you're not suggesting I am in the wrong place.  Although, you may very well be in the wrong thread.  I made this thread to talk about real issues, real needs, and real solutions.  If you have something to offer in that regaurd, by all means...

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/31/2012 4:12 PM

    Posted By sedare on 12/31/2012 4:02 PM

    So... Ok scenario to help me grasp this. (Something that might actually work after I found a trade machine lol)


    Hawks get JJ with extras,  Hawks dont have a true PF. And only J Smith at SF. They are over cap already anyways. 

    Blazers get Horford. Hes making 12 Mill over 4. Continue developing bench and have a centerpiece.

    What would JJ have to approve to allow this to happen? Would he have to sign and trade? or just go willingly?


    Trade machine are bad... but ok.  I don't know that the Hawks would give up Horford before Smith, but I do like Horford a lot.

     

    A sign and trade would could happen if:

    Blazer renounce JJ and he becomes an UFA.

    JJ doesn't sign an offer sheet with another team.

    We sign JJ to whatever the Hawks would pay him (say 24 mil 3 year deal) and we throw in pieces (freeland/babbit) to make up the difference.

    (The Hawks can only do the trade if by adding the players we send keeps them at a roster of 15 or below.)

     

    Smith is kind of the same player JJ is.  They both aren't exactly great shooters, but I suppose that is the way that scenario would pan out.

     

     

     

  1. Blazer Fanatic
    Blazer Fanatic
    Posts: 758

    Posted 12/31/2012 4:16 PM

    Posted By joe.k on 12/31/2012 3:23 PM

    @Blaser - do you think JJ would still be a beast if we tried trading him, and he said no? at that point he might be completely pissed at us... (then again, that might mean he plays his heart out for the remainder of this season so he can get a sweet deal for next yr


    This happens sometimes.  We want what's best for JJ, but it's business, and the Blazer's success will always take priority over an individual player's wants or needs.

     

    When you deal with an agent like Batum's, it can get ugly.  I hope we can work something out amicably with JJ either in getting him a solid deal thru a S&T or by resigning him here in Portland... somehow.  Not likely that the latter is possible, but it's might happen.

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